A message some Christians wouldn’t hear at General Conference

Mormon General Conference
Mormon General Conference (Photo credit: More Good Foundation)

On a counter-cult ministry blog – Life after Ministry – we read the following opening statement:

For the past five years I’ve prayed for the salvation of those who are trapped in the Mormon Religion. I’ve thought about what it would be like for the prophet to get up and deliver a message like the one below. To call all the church members to repentance, and to say that the church is going to abandon all its past sins, arrogance, and beliefs for Jesus and from here on after the members are to put their complete trust in him alone.

The writer is long time apostate Melissa Grimes, operate and contributor of Life after Ministry. Grimes further states:

It could be said that it’s very naive of me to think such a way and to entertain such fanciful notions, but I do. I want the Mormons to be saved; I want them to seek the deep abounding joy the gospel of Jesus Christ has to offer instead of the fleeting “happiness” the Mormon gospel gives them based on their works righteous system.

In her assessment, she severely assumes what exactly Latter-day Saint Christians may or may not hear about. Describing these as an Eternal to Do List that Mormons must accomplish in this life in order to receive eternal bliss. Grimes wants to reinforce her false information cocoon and reason to keep herself (and others) away from the reality and validity of what General Conference is all about. The question becomes apparent, what exactly is it that Christians like Melissa Grimes is afraid of? Furthermore, we can ask – what is it that they remain ignorant and refuse to understand? Many evangelical Christians that “pray for the Salvation of Mormons” do not want to take the time to realize that what General Conference is all about is how Latter-day Saints can become better followers of Jesus Christ, better husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, students, employers, employees, et al. After all, isn’t that what the Savior ultimately teaches us in the pages of the Gospels – to become better than the world and society that we find ourselves in?

Below are links to the specific summary of talks given at all the sessions of General Conference. Along with these links, a link to view the actual talk is available below so that the person can have the summary and listen to what each individual has to say. The contributors here at Mormon Apologetic Research Studies challenges all those who are questioning their faith, who are looking for what Mormons truly believe, and are curious about what General Conference is all about to listen to these men and to see whether or not men, women, and children are called to arise and go forth to become courageous in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and call fellow men to repentance.

Saturday Morning Session – October 6, 2012

Elder Cook Encourages All Members to Rely on the Atonement of Jesus Christ

Elder Cook full talk: Can ye feel so now?

Sister Dibb: “I’m a Mormon. I know it. I live it. I love it.”

Sister Dibb: Video – I know it. I live it. I love it.

Elder Craig C. Christensen: Testifies of the roles of the Holy Ghost

Elder Craig C. Christensen: An Unspeakable Gift from God – Video

Elder Shayne M. Bowen: Because I live, Ye shall live also

Elder Shayne M. Bowen: Video – Because I Live, Ye shall live also

Elder Russell M. Nelson: Ask the Missionaries

Elder Russel M. Nelson: Ask the Missionaries – Video

President Uchtdorf: Regrets and Resolutions

President Uchtdorf: Video – Regrets and Resolutions

To read more summaries of all General Conference Talks please click here.  To watch full General Conference Talks, click here.

14 thoughts on “A message some Christians wouldn’t hear at General Conference

  1. Tim, you are a true warrior for the truth. I appreciate your efforts to help people see past the ‘arm of the flesh’ in which they trust so much… and to exercise some real faith. It never ceases to amaze me how some people can trust so much in their limited understanding, and trust so little in an all-knowing and all-powerfull God. Keep it up Tim! Great work!

  2. I want to start off by thanking Timothy Berman for posting a link to my article on his blog. Thank you, just by adding the link you’re helping me do what I wanted to do with the article which is reach Mormons. All I want them to do is just listen to Pastor John Pipers sermon, that’s all and after that it trust the Holy Spirit to take it from there.

    Tim you said a lot of things, but you really didn’t say anything in reference to what my message was all about. What did your prophet teach you about Jesus during this Conference? What did you learn about the grace and salvation that’s only found by and through Jesus Christ alone? Where are the quotes from Conference on these things?

    “In her assessment, she severely assumes what exactly Latter-day Saint Christians may or may not hear about.”

    You see Tim; I don’t have to “assume” anything about Mormonism. I was a Mormon for 13yrs. And even if I wasn’t if I was just a regular Christian witnessing to the lost I would still know about Mormonism because your people are very good when it to talking about your religion on line. It’s funny how open and honest someone will be about Mormonism when their talking on a blog or message board vs. talking to someone face to face.

    “The question becomes apparent, what exactly is it that Christians like Melissa Grimes is afraid of?”

    I’m not the one “afraid”, least of all of Mormonism. I would ask why are Mormons afraid of being open and honest about their beliefs when talking face to face with someone. Why do you get that feeling in the bit of your stomach that you need to change the topic when someone asks you about your belief that God was a mortal man who lived on another world, your temple rites, or about Jesus and Satan being brothers? Why do you follow Bob Millet’s advice to lie for the Lord, and to “answer the question they should have asked” vs. the one they’re posing to you? Why are you afraid?

    As much as I hate to admit it in the end your leaders will probably never get up and encourage the members to focus only on Jesus, and on the work He did there on their behalf giving all the glory to Him. Truth be told you want a cut of the glory too, you want to be praised for all the work you do for your salvation and that’s blaspheme. This is why you’ll never be told to “boast only in the cross”. – Melissa Grimes

    1. Melissa Grimes says: “Tim you said a lot of things, but you really didn’t say anything in reference to what my message was all about. What did your prophet teach you about Jesus during this conference? What did you learn about the grace and salvation that’s only found by and through Jesus Christ alone? Where are the quotes from conference on these things?”

      My response: If I had not said anything in reference to what your message was, then why would I have linked up to each individual summary of the talks and the actual videos of each individual speaker from the Saturday morning session for people to watch, read, and listen to? Why would I link to additional summaries of additional talks that came from General Conference as well as a link to all the videos that one can access and watch? They are published for people to see exactly what was talked about and how each talk does specifically address all aspects of living a Christ-Like life. To become better followers and disciples of Christ. There is much that I have personally learned and am preparing to share those thoughts in the coming weeks here.

      Melissa Grimes says: In her assessment, she severely assumes what exactly Latter-day Saint Christians may or may not hear about.

      You see Tim; I don’t have to “assume” anything about Mormonism. I was a Mormon for 13 years and even if I wasn’t, if I was just a regular Christian witnessing to the lost, I would still know about Mormonism because your people are very good when it [comes] to talking about your religion online. It’s funny how open and honest someone will be about Mormonism when their talking on a blog or message board vs. talking to someone face to face.

      My response: For fifteen years, I was an apostate, an Ex-Mormon who was a born again Christian that also engaged in “Witnessing to Mormons”. My knowledge comes from direct experience of interaction and how to talk with and witness to Mormons about the supposed errors in their doctrine and teaching. I also condemned Joseph Smith, modern day Prophets and Apostles, and challenged members of the LDS Church to come out of the “cult of Mormonism” and embrace the Biblical Christ. Much of my studying and research about Religion, Christianity, the Bible, and the like came during this fifteen years of being outside of the Church, not inside the Church. Therefore, your comment of how long you have been a member means nothing if your presentation of what Mormons believe is built on shallow and faulty ground. I am well versed in the typical arguments used against the Church, how they are constructed, and what “proof texts” are used. Again, however long you have been a member of the Church makes no difference when it comes down to the question of whether or not you are personally and honestly presenting facts or lies.

      In addition, what is sad is that many critics, once their arguments are exposed through logic, factual reasoning, and shown to be intentional misrepresentation of the truth, continue to speak and publish those same lies. They refuse to accept and admit that they may very well be the ones deceived and caught up in a dangerous cult – and in some cases quite brainwashed. Instead, they reinforce their information cocoon’s through others who agree with them and refuse to consider any additional outside sources.

      Melissa Grimes says: “The question becomes apparent, what exactly is it that Christians like Melissa Grimes is afraid of?”

      I’m not the one “afraid”, least of all of Mormonism. I would ask why are Mormons afraid of being open and honest about their beliefs when talking face to face with someone. Why do you get that feeling in the bit of your stomach that you need to change the topic when someone asks you about your belief that God was a mortal man who lived on another world, your temple rites, or about Jesus and Satan being brothers? Why do you follow Bob Millet’s advice to lie for the Lord, and to “answer the question they should have asked” vs. the one they’re posing to you? Why are you afraid?

      My Response: Latter-day Saints are not afraid to speak openly and honestly about their faith and what they believe. We are just the opposite, we engage in conversations that are conducive to share what we believe – regardless of whether or not someone agrees with us or not. When the conversation is civil, honest and respectful, then people are able to learn from one another. The probably is that majority of Latter-day Saints will not engage in someone who calls us brainwashed, members of a cult, followers of Satan, children of hell, or any form of statements that are an attack on our faith, doctrine, heritage, and culture. That is not being afraid, that is recognizing such individuals who engage in such observable behavior as being narrow minded, bigoted, and full of hatred. As for changing the topic, again, one does well to understand proper forms of communication. There are reasons some change the topic and that varies from person to person. Why do evangelical Christians feel it is their right and privilege (like you and others of the Counter-Cult Ministry group) to engage in attacking and degrading a persons faith and then complain that no one wants to talk with you openly and honestly? Think about that one for a moment. Furthermore, sometimes, changing the topic is beneficial when you are dealing with someone who has received several answers to their questions and refuse to accept those answers and continue to push the envelope, ignoring what the response was given.

      Why do evangelical Christians change the subject? Why do they not answer questions when Atheists condemn their beliefs? Why do you do the same thing you stand in judgment of accusing Latter-day Saints? Why do you block people like me that actually respond to your criticisms and then mock, ridicule, and falsely accuse us of “violating” page rules? Yes, you are afraid because if you were not afraid, then you would not censor Latter-day Saints from posting on your blogs and provide an answer so your readers can see that they are willing to address your answers and questions. Think about that one for a moment.

      Finally, why do evangelical Christians claim to worship Christ and yet engage in deceptive behaviors, lie, distort the truth, and make disparaging remarks about people who are willing to have an open and honest discussion in order to correct any misinformation that you and other such ministries are publishing about the Church? It seems to me that you are afraid because if you were not then you would not allow yourself to engage in the very practice that you stand in judging Latter-day Saints of doing – and even making such judgments based on False and delusional attempts to reinforce your misrepresentation of the truth.

      Melissa Grimes said: As much as I hate to admit it in the end your leaders will probably never get up and encourage the members to focus only on Jesus, and on the work He did there on their behalf giving all the glory to Him. Truth be told you want a cut of the glory too, you want to be praised for all the work you do for your salvation and that’s blaspheme. This is why you’ll never be told to “boast only in the cross”.

      My response: And herein lies the problem of your assertion because you refuse to open your heart, open your eyes and open your ears and hear what the Leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ truly have to say in how members can become better disciples of Jesus Christ. You would rather remain blinded by your own reinforced deception, make up excuses and declare that Mormons are never Christian because of your specified doctrinal requirements that, sadly in the end were man-made doctrinal creations through political machination of their time. Latter-day Saints are constantly encouraged to look to Jesus Christ, to look to the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and to learn how to live the life that our Savior called us to live so that we can endure to the end and become heirs with Jesus Christ. Truth be told, if you only knew the real Biblical Truth, then you would understand Revelation 3:21 and as well as the counsel Paul gave to Timothy when he said “I have fought the good fight, have run the race and there now lays up for me a crown of righteousness”. The true heretics are the one’s who follow in the footsteps and spirit of the Pharisees – condemning all those, to include their Messiah because they “hath not ears to hear”. This is why you will stand before the Savior and realize you are more of a goat than a sheep.

      1. Tim, the LDS church is a guilt machine. You can never be good enough, unless you happen to be so egotistical that you cross over into unrighteous dominion. There is a built in separation from God, because the need is always there to repent. Repent of what? The way God made you?
        The Book of Mormon doesn’t only LACK archaeological evidence, there is actually archaeological evidence that scientifically demonstrates the book is a falsification. There were no horses, no wheels, no steel and none of the geography matches up. It’s an issue and there are lots of theories but no consensus and more importantly, the matter is allowed to wallow in speculation when if the church was a valid vehicle of God, the matter and many others could be resolved by direct revelation.
        Both you and Melissa worship the Christ of your mind, not the one of the Bible, because Christ is an idea of whose conception is entirely unique to you, as is EVERYTHING else in your experience.
        Furthermore, your beat down on her shows ego, not compassion.
        Your Jesus can beat up the other Jesus, or vice versa.. Whatever. If there is an infinite God, why would he care what you thought of Him since he can’t be seen and and left such a lousy evidence trail.
        And who are any of you to assume you know what’s up about a God you claim to know better than the other guy, when you don’t even know your own heart, your own mind well enough to look for the confirmation bias, the groupthink and the ego?

        1. Disambigu8 said: Tim, the LDS Church is a guilt machine. You can never be good enough, unless you happen to be so egotistical that you cross over into unrighteous dominion.

          My response: This is a very generalized statement that has no bearing on truth. Christianity itself can be seen as a guilt machine because it its teaching that unless you are saved and forgiven, nothing you can do in this life will benefit you or make you feel any bit of happiness. As for the statement of crossing over to unrighteous dominion, is another false statement because we are counseled against practicing unrighteous dominion in our families, in our work place, and even in our specific callings. Sadly, this is nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion and have no basis in factual reality or logical thinking.

          Disamigu8 said: There is a built in separation from God, because the need is always there to repent. Repent of what? The way God made you?

          My response: There is a faulty premise of ambiguity here. Since you are not speaking on any sound facts or sound reasoning, it makes it quite difficult to address any specific objections that you are presenting. However, there are two things: (1) in a sense, we are separate from our Heavenly in that we are making our own personal journey through this mortal existence. However, we are not separated from our Heavenly Father because he is always there watching over us, we just need to learn how to turn to him and seek him out. (2) We have in need of repenting from those things that actually cause a separation from our Heavenly Father. That is one aspect of our mortal journey is to overcome, through the power and efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our own sins and transgressions, exercising self-control of those desires and those things that would separate us from God. As for the way God made us? We are made in the divine and express image of our Heavenly Father. We have the moral agency to choose to live unto Christ and follow Christ, to be conformed into the image of Christ, or to choose captivity and enslavement of our will and desires, to only be led into captivity by the Devil.

          Disamigu8 said:The Book of Mormon doesn’t only LACK archaeological evidence, there is actually archaeological evidence that scientifically demonstrates the book is a falsification. There were no horses, no wheels, no steel and none of the geography matches up. It’s an issue and there are lots of theories but no consensus and more importantly, the matter is allowed to wallow in speculation when if the church was a valid vehicle of God, the matter and many others could be resolved by direct revelation.

          My response: This is where criticism that is regurgitated meets up with established facts that actually go beyond mere speculation and cause one to stop and think that there is severe parallel’s and evidence about the New World where Archaeology is beginning to show forth authenticity to the Book of Mormon. Here are just some examples of such evidences that many critics refuse to deal with and acknowledge.

          1) Well known and well-respected chronicler of the New World is Pedro de Cieza de Lion who came to the New World and began taking several notes about his travels and expeditions of the New World. All of his notes and observations were published in four parts. He is referred to as the “Prince of Chroniclers”:

          Young Cieza was fascinated by what he saw around him and kept notes on what he observed. He amassed firsthand information on the flora and fauna of the northern Andes during these campaigns, which provided the foundation of the natural history that makes up a large section of part one of his chronicle (Introduction: The Discovery and Conquest of Peru – Chronicles of the New World, edited and translated by Alexandra Parma Cook & Noble David Cook, Duke University Press).

          In addition to this, it is also recorded that Cieza was one of the first European travelers in the Andes of Peru who used “native informants extensively in his research, and he did so even a decade before he questioned surviving Inca record keepers, the quipucamayos, in Cuzco.” This is important to understand because Cieza’s work cannot be easily dismissed when we get to the fourth part of his chronicles where we find this account (refer to Chapter V):

          Before the Incas reigned in these kingdoms, or had ever been heard of, the Indians relate another thing much more notable than all things else that they say. For they declare that they were a long time without seeing the sun, and that, suffering much evil from its absence, great prayers and vows were offered up to their gods, imploring for the light they needed. Things being in this state, the sun, shining very brightly, came forth from the island of Titicaca, in the great lake of the Collao, at which every one rejoiced. Presently afterwards, they say, that there came from a southern direction a white man of great stature, who, by his aspect and presence, called forth great veneration and obedience. This man who thus appeared had great power, insomuch that he could change plains into mountains, and great hills into valleys, and make water flow out of stones. As soon as such power was beheld, the people called him the Maker of created things, the Prince of all things, Father of the Sun. For they say that he performed other wonders, giving life to men and animals, so that by his hand marvellous great benefits were conferred on the people. And such was the story that the Indians who told it to me say that they heard from their ancestors, who in like manner heard it in the old songs which they received from very ancient times. They say that this man went on towards the north, working these marvels along the way of the mountains; and that he never returned so as to be seen. In many places he gave orders to men how they should live, and he spoke lovingly to them and with much gentleness, admonishing them that they should do good, and no evil or injury one to another, and that they should be loving and charitable to all. In most parts he is generally called Ticiviracocha, but in the province of the Collao they call him Tuapaca, and in other places Arnauan. In many parts they built temples in which they put blocks of stone in likeness of him, and offered up sacrifices before them.

          What is described here is far from speculation and coincidence of how it mirrors the events recorded in the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi and the visitation of Jesus Christ to the ancient inhabitants. Keep in mind, this is what Cieza is recording through native informants, and this information was noted in the mid-1500’s. Christ’s visitation to the America’s occurred in the early part of the First Century of the New World. There is further evidence surrounding 3 Nephi and the coming of Christ to the Americas.

          2. An accidental discovery of a city where it’s destruction dates back to the time of Christ’s crucifixion. This underwater city is in Lake Atitlan and was discovered approximately in 1994 by accident. A diver by the name of Roberto Samayoa made the discovery and was not taken seriously, but named it Samabaj. It was not until about 2006 that archaeologists began to take Samayoa seriously and mapped a 400 square meter area. A Reuters article describes the destruction having occurred around 250 AD. However, the Maya Relief Foundation places the destruction approximately 2000 years previous. This puts the time frame to about the time of Christ’s crucifixion where the water level rose up suddenly. One destructive feature of 3 Nephi where cities were buried underwater.

          3. Volcanic Eruption and three days of darkness. Many critics proclaim that upon Christ’s crucifixion, Joseph Smith got it wrong when the events surrounding the event of Christ’s death on the Cross came with three hours not three days of darkness. What they fail to grasp is the fact that the events described in the Book of Mormon surrounding the crucixion, and the events surrounding the crucifixion as we have it in the Gospels are different because of geographical locations. Comparing the two, one will find that they coincide with one singular event that can cause such a major destruction as to block out the sun for three days, along with fulfilling all other detailed descriptions – lack and inability to light torches, difficulty breathing, and thick darkness to obstruct one’s view. This evidence is scientifically based and cannot be reasoned away. There are several articles addressing this as well as scientific data from Vuclanology:

          John A Tvedtnes – Historical Parallels to the Destruction at the time of the Crucifixion

          Abstract: To the nonbeliever, the wide variety of destructive forces unleashed in the New World at the time of Christ’s crucifixion seems preposterous or, at the very least, unscientific. The account in 3 Nephi 8–9 mentions the simultaneous occurrence of earthquake, fire, strong winds, extensive flooding, the complete burial of cities, and thick darkness. An examination of known great natural disasters in historical times reveals that the Book of Mormon in no way exaggerates. All of the destructive forces mentioned in 3 Nephi 8–9 can be readily explained in terms of the tectonic forces that result from the encounter of the plates on which the continents and the oceans lie. The complex variety of destructive forces that we normally consider to be separate phenomena of nature is, in reality, strong evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon account.

          May 20, 1883 – The Eruption of Krakatau:

          Early in the morning of May 20, 1883, the captain of the German warship Elizabeth reported seeing an 11 km-high cloud of ash and dust rising above the uninhabited island of Krakatau, thus documenting the first eruption from this indonesian island in at least two centures. Over the ensuing two months, crews on commercial vessels and sightseers on charted ships would experience similar spectacles, all of which were associated with explosive noises and churning clouds of black to incandescent ash and pumice. From a distance, the largest of these natural fanfares impressed the local inhabitants on the coastal plains of Java and Sumatra, creating a near-festive environment. Little did they realize, however, that these awe-inspiring displays were only a prelude to one of the largest eruptions in historic times. A series of cataclysmic explosions began at mid-day on August 26, and ended on August 27 with a stupendous paroxysmal eruption. On this day, the northern two-thirds of the island collapsed beneath the sea, generating a series of devastating pyroclastic flows and immense tsunamis that ravaged adjacent coastlines. The events that began on August 26 would mark the last 24 hours on earth for over 36,000 people, and the destruction of hundreds of coastal villages and towns.

          One can read the devastation of this event for further information. The final blast/eruption could be heard 4600 km away. This equals 2,858.307 miles that the blast was heard. To get a greater perspective of how far this final eruption could be heard is picturing one standing in Seattle, Washington and hearing this blast where it originated from Milltown, NJ – almost from the Eastern coastline to the Pacific Coastline of the United States.

          Volcanic eruption can cause three days of darkness. Because of the nature of Volcanic eruption, the plume cloud (predicated upon how powerful the eruption is) can reach great heights. These heights can have adverse affect on the seasons, and even block out the sun. In Alaska, on June 6th, 1912, Mount Navarupta erupted with a powerful blast that was heard 750 miles away, an hour after it actually erupted (light travels faster than sound). The plume cloud from this eruption caused Ash to fall for the next three days:

          Within just a few hours after the eruption a thick blanket of ash began falling upon the town – and ash continued falling for the next three days, covering the town up to one foot deep. The residents of Kodiak were forced to take shelter indoors. Many buildings collapsed from the weight of heavy ash on their roofs.

          Outside, the ash made breathing difficult, stuck to moist eyes and completely blocked the light of the sun at midday. Any animal or person who was caught outside probably died from suffocation, blindness or an inability to find food and water.

          Now, these are just a handful of scientific and geographical data concerning the devastation the inhabits of Ancient America may have experienced. the blast of the force of a major Volcanic eruption, as recorded in specific detail in 3 Nephi, was powerful enough to cause the earth to shake in Jerusalem, where scientists have made discovery of some type of “earthquake” activity.

          So, if you want to argue that there is a “LACK” of archaeological evidence, and then regurgitate the same rhetoric that one finds in typical Anti-Mormon literature, then it shows you lack the integrity to critically analyze and investigate for yourself the reliability of their claims. I have made this an open challenge to any critic of our faith – refute the scientific data of Vulcanology, refute Cieza’s well-respected and honored information, and prove that what these two describe is not very detailed in 3rd Nephi. So far, no honest critic of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taken on the privilege and honor to refute these well-established non-speculative data that strongly lends credibility to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

          disambigu8 said: Both you and Melissa worship the Christ of your mind, not the one of the Bible, because Christ is an idea of whose conception is entirely unique to you, as is EVERYTHING else in your experience.

          My response: While I may disagree with what Melissa is saying, publishing, and call her an apostate, one thing I do know is that she authentically claims to follow Jesus Christ as she best understands him and is able to relate to him. In the same manner, I too accept and understand who Jesus Christ is. He is not some fanciful mindful creative expression of my own conventions. This is mere false assertion that demeans and mocks what Melissa and I personally believe.

          disambigua8 says: Furthermore, your beat down on her shows ego, not compassion.
          Your Jesus can beat up the other Jesus, or vice versa.. Whatever. If there is an infinite God, why would he care what you thought of Him since he can’t be seen and and left such a lousy evidence trail.

          My response: I am not beating anyone down. I am addressing something that I see as being falsely ascribed to what I accept and believe in. It seems that the more I read your comments and ponder upon them, the more I am seeing that the one having issues with ego is you. As for the veracity of the existence of God or not, if you do not believe in God, that is your cup of tea and problem, not mine. You have every right to your opinionated egotistical thought process – does not constitute that it is based on logical reasoning or any factual awareness. Furthermore, I am not here to prove the existence of God to someone that sees God as a fanciful fantasy.

          disambigua8 said: And who are any of you to assume you know what’s up about a God you claim to know better than the other guy, when you don’t even know your own heart, your own mind well enough to look for the confirmation bias, the groupthink and the ego?

          My response: The same question can be asked of you? Do you know me personally and intimately? Do you know my own personal life history and all that I have been involved with? No you do not and you are speaking out of a defunct biased and prejudicial worldview of condemnation. The reality is that I do not claim any true knowledge about God where it is made to be more superior than anyone else. Each of us experiences God on our respective levels of understanding and personal experience. What I experience and know of God is far different than what someone else may know and experience of God. I do not go around and criticize, demean, mock, ridicule, and use any condescending attitude in putting what someone claims to know and understand as being far inferior to my own personal experience. Secondly, I do know my own heart, my own mind and do have the capacity to look past my own biased and prejudices. It takes work because one has to come to a cognizant recognition of their own biased and prejudicial perception and how it plays in interpreting the world and culture around us. Maybe you should contact your local community college and take some classes on interpersonal communication and cultural diversity.

  3. Your Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. The Biblical Jesus is the Triune God. Find the answer in the original Hebrew and Greek where the Biblical translations are from. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer. Ask and seach for the TRUTH. It isn’t in the LDS BOM, D&C and other works. John the Baptist was the LAST prophet.
    Where in the Bible does it say,”LDS”?
    Check for BOM proof? There is none. The Smithsonian said there is none. Where is the proof? BUT much proof for the Bible!! Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Do your research away from the LDS. They don’t allow you to Question Authority.

    1. Before you post any more comments here – please read the Welcome Page and pay close attention to the Flow of Discussion.

      This is the typical response from our critics that generally has no substance or critical analysis. They call upon members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to study and read the Bible, to include the Greek and Hebrew renderings of what the Bible says. The problem is, such a person like this is far more ignorant of the Bible and the Hebrew and the Greek than they are insinuating. I have studied the Bible and the doctrine of Christophany, Christology, Theophany and do not find the modern convention and invention of the doctrine of the Trinitarianism. For instance, Revelation 3:21 clearly and distinctly separates the Father from the Son. How could the Son, being divine, be of the same nature and Essence of a Spirit Being when he is resurrected? How could he sit on his throne at the same time his Father sits on the Father’s throne? How could Christ make a request of himself to have his glory restored unto himself that he had with himself in the beginning (John 17:5).

      If John the Baptist was the last Prophet then that means Peter and the original eleven apostles did not hold the office of Prophet and Apostle, nor had the authority to preach right?

      Next, they move to the archaeology debate and refuse to exercise critical thinking and examine the available information. This individual believes that because there is archaeological evidence for the Bible (which is only about 70% discovered) there ought to be archaeological evidence proving the Book of Mormon.

      The final comment is sarcastic and blatant ignorance. The problem is, I have done my research and yes, I have read the Dead Sea Scrolls and have done my investigation – I am very well-read in these areas. And I have spent fifteen years outside of the LDS Church doing most of my research.

    2. The Smithsonian says there is no proof for the Book of Mormon? And that is sufficient proof for you?

      Some years ago, I wrote to the same Smithsonian whose word you accept unequivocally and asked them whether they had proof that Noah’s Flood actually occurred. They denied the possibility that there could have been any such Flood as described in the Holy Bible.

      Do you accept the word of the Smithsonian that the Flood described in Genesis never happened because they say it was impossible?

      Is it an article of your faith that the Smithsonian is the guarantor of its truth, and has replaced the Holy Spirit as the vehicle of faith in God and his scripture?

      You accept the SI’s word about the Book of Mormon, so will you also accept their word about the HB and concede, with the SI, that the HB has it wrong when it says there was a flood that covered the whole earth because the SI believes differently?

      Just where, and in what or whom, is the ground of your faith?

      How did Christians know that the HB was true before there was one shred of archaeological evidence unearthed in Palestine? Do you believe that they were foolish to believe what the Holy Ghost brought to their hearts and minds about the person and work of Jesus Christ, or ought they to have suspended their judgements and ignored the breathings of the Spirit of God that told them in the absence of what you now call ‘proof’ that God lives and that Jesus is His Christ, and our Saviour and Redeemer?

      Is archaeological evidence the only evidence that counts in your religion? Paul warned, “Quench not the Spirit; despise not prophesyings … ” But you appear to insist that the Spirit is quashed if the message of the Holy Spirit cannot be reconciled with the statements of the Smithsonian Institution.

      Perhaps you know a passage of scripture from the Holy Bible that directs you to ignore the Spirit and pay strict attention to the Smithsonian. If so, please share it with us so that we can take a closer look at the position that needs no revelation from God to the hearts of believers through the Holy Spirit. Until then, perhaps you will be more gracious to latter-day Saints that exercise their faith under the terms set out by Jesus in the fourteenth chapter of the Gospel of John in which Jesus says of the Holy Spirit, “He will lead you into all truth.”

      If Mormons are guilty of anything, they are guilty of believing Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, rather than the pronouncements of an uninspired secular establishment that has no fealty to God, and whose jaundiced eyes do the same disservice to the Holy Bible as they do to the Book of Mormon.

      You do not have any choice, once you opt to replace divine revelation through the Holy Spirit with anything that comes out of the SI. Once you cross that bridge, then you have to accept everything it says whether you agree with it or not. There is no picking and choosing. If you believe the SI regarding the BOM then you must, perforce, accept every word it says about the HB.

      You are, of course, free to choose for yourself, but I would not want to place the responsibility for my eternal salvation in the hands of a body among whom there are so many that have no faith, including some that are atheists. Perhaps you will understand if I continue to be led through this vale of tears and evil by Almighty God through the instruments He has chosen to guide his children towards him.

      I trust I have made my point with sufficient clarity.

      May God bless you.

  4. *sighs* It’s always these type of people who make you wonder, scratch your head and go huh? You try so hard to affirm a belief, and relationship with Christ and no matter what you do, they say you’re doing it wrong.

  5. What can I say? What can anyone say that a person with such a jaundiced view as Sister Grimes will actually heed even if she is capable of hearing?

    She is like someone telling a child riding a carousel that he needs to get off it and try a roundabout.

    I found Jesus in Mormonism 62 years ago, and He is still right there at its core.

    1. Thank you Anna – I too am a former apostate who spent fifteen years attacking the Church because I thought I was truly saved and fell under the impression idealism that Mormonism was a cult. Now, I am glad that I have returned back to the Faith and have a greater understanding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a greater appreciation of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

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